# じごくです

## Wednesday, May 6, 2015

##

The debate on the right of minors to access information regarding CTB

Below is an excerpt of one of the many threads under the topic " Should we have minors here?" in SMH.

My opinions are underlined. <They aren't posted on the newsgroup themselves>

Should we have minors here?

11/26/14

Hollywood

State your opinion.

11/26/14

silversurfer

yes. it's not like we can stop them anyway.

11/26/14

rl

No.

11/26/14

Alien

I agree with rl, I don't think we should. I know that some will sneak through sometimes but to actually know they are here and allow them to be here I think would be bad for the group.

11/26/14

zooey

No, that can only harm the group and bring unwanted attention.

>Seriously why the fuck will we want to do harm to the group? Ok I don't speak for all but I'm sure I am definitely speaking for most of us but we do know to cherish this safe and open community we have here right now and not take it for granted. Not all of us are attention-seeking and trying to get interventionists up our back tracking all our web history and shit. Definitely if we want to CTB we will clear all the history first before we go? Maybe just add in highlights and caps in the rules part - clear all traces leading to SMH before we go. Doesn't that solve the problem? ( Some people mightn't read that BUT isn't it the same for not allowing minors there? There isn't a perfect solution - all solutions have loopholes, just like I am a minor but still I am an ASHer and participating in the newsgroups and IRCs. Unless you want us to each scan our identity card or something and submit that before we can join the newsgroups and associated chatrooms, there really isn't any foolproof way to keep us out - why are you even doing that in the first place? ) Instead of stripping us of our rights to access adequate information in order to make wise and informed decisions just because of our age, shouldn't we all share as a community like the original ASH culture and core values stated? A place where there is no restriction? Age aside, all of us are like-minded ASHers - We do want to get on the same bus - heading for the same destination. Embrace this instead of worrying about the troubles we might cause ( NOTE: We are not ungrateful brats ) - Has any of this worries actually REALLY happened? Not that I have heard of.

11/26/14

silversurfer

many of us here have had suicidal urges since we were very young. Nothing changed then and nothings changed now, in fact things have gotten worse with age. If a minor wants to ctb good. I'm not going to be a hypocrite and start telling people who can and who can't ctb. People say I shouldn't ctb because I'm only mentally ill, little do they know that these meds I take make me sleep all the time and get fat so I don't take them and end up in hospital. Other people believe if you have a terminal illness you shouldn't ctb either.
fuck people. Only you as an individual know what you need. Obviously I don't want a 13 year old to go kill themselves but I'm not going to go all pro-life on their ass either. The information is out there, at the end of the day they'll do what they need to do anyway.

> *claps* this is the ASH role model

11/26/14

RedRightHand

I feel a bit conflicted about the subject.
On one hand I feel minors are too young to commit suicide, especially since they haven't yet grown old enough to truly discover themselves. And it's therefore wrong to provide them with methods and information. On the other hand, I ask myself who am I to judge them? I haven't walked in their shoes and don't know what they have been through to end up here. There are people who would say even I'm too young to ctb. I turn 27 in a couple of months.
Ultimately, minors are going to end up joining regardless and we wouldn't even know. There's no age verification to join the group that I'm aware of and even those are simple to circumvent.

> Another wise folk we have here

11/26/14

zooey

There a difference between not allowing minors on the group for legal reasons

> Hey I don't think this is much legal even for adults, huh?

and being hypocritical or pro life. By the way, did you really mean "If a minor wants to ctb good."? I think it's a crying shame that the life of a young person can be so bad that they want to end it and I know exactly how it feels to be a child trapped in a hellish existence. The fact that we can't have minors as members of the group in no way diminishes my compassion for or understanding of them. If we allow children to become members then it's just a matter of time before there is no group at all. Having said that, I remain resolutely pro choice.

11/26/14

RedRightHand

The legal aspect makes sense. We're already skating on thin ice in that regard. And it would be awful for the group to be shut down. I don't know of any other groups that allow the discussion of methods. ASH/ASM were good in their time but they have become cesspools thanks to the trolls.

11/26/14

deyr

I have to agree with silversurfer on this matter. Honestly, who are we to judge, let alone stop, a complete stranger who has also surpassed their limit of pain merely because of their age?
Didn't any of you guys already feel mature enough to make important decisions when you were 13? Didn't you want legal adults to respect you and treat you as an adult as well? And more importantly, haven't most of us here today felt the same or somewhat similar suicidal feelings from a young age? What if you had acted on your feelings when you were a teenager? Would that really make a difference to your own life now?
I know the answers to those questions as they apply to me, and i know that if someone's destiny is to die by their own hand it will happen. Whether during their teen years or as elders, it will happen because age doesn't matter. What matters is that they are the same and very much likely to carry those feelings on throughout their life until they may finally do it.
Also, i think it's been established before that governments don't really give a fuck about suicidal people. I mean come on, the US had even been making massive purchases of four people coffins; when a nation is preparing to eliminate millions, why would they care about the few who succeed at eliminating themselves? Basically, if they wanted to shut this group down they would have done so already.

> well said.

11/26/14

silversurfer

@Zooey 'By the way, did you really mean "If a minor wants to ctb good."?
yes, I did. It is not my business if someone wants to ctb or not. I don't condemn it, nor do I encourage it. Your body, your choice.

11/26/14

silversurfer

btw I'm assuming that the OP's question was theoretical and your not really considering letting minors join? because if it's not well I'm sure it's illegal and you can't age verify not really so it's a moot conversation to be having really.
unless you are just saying then it gets more interesting.

11/26/14

MM

It's really just the legal aspect that would insist the group to keep minors "away", just as porn sites do. We all know that kids discover porn anyway, way way before they're 18 (or 21). Just some of life's usual hypocrisies.

4 messages have been deleted.

11/26/14

zooey

@silversurfer, I think you'll find the word good in this context is encouragement. That could have been tricky for you if this weren't merely a hypothetical discussion.
Another point is, if we don't draw the line at 18, where do we draw the line: 8 or younger, 12, 14, 16? We do have to draw the line somewhere. I, and I'm sure many others, wouldn't want to be part of some sick group that shares methods with 12 year olds, thereby enabling them to kill themselves. Given that there does have to be a cut off point, I don't see the problem with making that the age of majority? It safeguards the group legally and prevents it from degenerating into an immoral entity. To those who think that governments don't care, try involving children and I guarantee they will care. We have already seen evidence of that on an off-shoot of this group.

> wtf the government's got some bullshit in their head too. Children or adults, all are equal LIVES right? So young lives are worth more and deserve more concern, are they trying to express?
If they do care, they will care equally much, if not more about you grown-ups too.

11/26/14

silversurfer

@Zooey fine. change what I said from 'good' to 'I don't care'. ctb don't ctb I really don't care. People can do what they want with their bodies lol. I was only responding to the OP's comment I have no interest what so ever in who is allowed in the group.

11/27/14

NMills

At first I read this and thought.. you know human rights and yea of course. And then I thought back to when I was a minor. A place like this is not appropriate for someone that young. Brains aren't fully developed until idk like 25 or omsthing. I know a bunch of kids that made sucidal "gestures" when they were youngr and realized they didn't want to die. A person changes sooo much during those years...I would say minors should definitely have to wait to access a place like this until they have more time to grow and develop more understanding.

11/27/14

NMills

how would we even be able to block minors from this website though?

11/27/14

RedRightHand

You can't unfortunately

> That's right. You can't.

11/27/14

buduta

I remember that when i was younger, there were no big difference. I think it depend also. If you say a 8-10 years old kid, i think it's wrong to see a 10y kid here. But if you mean 15-17 minor that want to ctb.. well, sometime, some of them are more mature than some adult (i was one of those 'more mature' at that age). Afterall, kids are going to lie with their age, and there's no way to verify the age of users here. I'm 26, soon 27, and i don't see a major difference about me now from who i was when i had 17. And the desire to ctb can catch you at any age.

11/27/14

Alien

Minors will sneak through into here and either lie about their age or just lurk and that is one thing but when we are fully aware that somebody of say 13 is asking questions that is where the problems start. It is not that because of their age they don't know what they are doing so much as it is the potential problems that could arise if it comes the the attention of their parents or the authorities and the problems that would cause the group. I for one would ignore any questions that came from someone I knew to be quite young.
I think it is best to at least state a minimum age to join the group even if nobody takes any notice of that it does make the group look more responsible.

11/27/14

rl

In most jurisdictions, at the age of 18 people are responsible for looking after themselves. Under the age of 18, parents are at least partially responsible for their child's welfare. As far as this group goes, that is a very important distinction. I for one do not want the wrath of parents coming down on this group and jeopardising its very existence.

11/27/14

departureunknown

IF they do not tell us they are minors we will never know.
BUT I put a rifle to my head and pulled the trigger when I was 14. When I pulled that trigger I should have CTB.
NOW I am 55 and wish I had died when I was 14. I should have died a few times along the way but definitely when I was 52 via H2S.
This group could be fragmented out into various subsets (ie under 18, terminally ill, major depression ...) but for what purpose?
Society as a whole does not understand choosing death at any age or condition.

11/27/14

buduta

but minor or not,,, in both cases, i guess most of the time, if there's a suicide, people will investigate, and may find this forum, and they will try to put the fault on this place just because pro-life do-gooders are like that. This is why i recommand to change hard drive before proceeding, reinstall windows and your usual stuff on your new hard-drive, visit some casual websites but not this place. Be sure to destroy the old Hard-Drive, and this place have a chance to be spared. The only point, is that if they are minor, for some reason, it will just look worse in the media, and people may push a little further to shut down this place. But even with adult, i think it can get the same if we don't change our hard drive before proceeding. With adult we still need to take care. We can ask an age limit to look more responsible (i even recommand it), but if a kid decide to lie his age, and parents found the website after the death of their child, too bad for this place, because i don't think they will spare this place just because there was an age limit.

11/27/14

Snow White

No one should CTB without exhausting their treatment options and, as most of us know, it takes years for someone who even only has simple depression to exhaust their treatment options. I know I'm in the minority on this but I think the minimum age for joining should be 30. I think people should be asked their age without telling them what the minimum age requirement is, and I think they should also be asked what their diagnosis is and what treatments they've tried. Age exceptions could be made on a case by case basis. But the flip side of that is that if a shrink has thrown two ADs and a benzo at someone and then thrown up their hands and said it's the fault of the patient that they aren't getting better, then that person should be advised that they need to find a new shrink (and a cognitive behavioral therapist as well if at all possible). And that should be done regardless of their age. People can lie about their age, but it would be difficult for a person to fake a medical history that involved exhausting their treatment options.
I have been on and off (mostly on) this kind of group since 2007. I can guarantee that whoever acts as gatekeeper for this group will be very surprised by the people wanting to join who have either 1) very clearly *not* exhausted their treatment options or 2) have not gotten any treatment at all.
We need to keep in mind that depression is normally a highly treatable illness, but there are a lot of young people who don't know that and who are too ashamed to even tell anyone they know they are seriously considering suicide. I was one of those young people when I was in college because I became overwhelmed by my coursework. After I got out of school, I was VERY glad I didn't kill myself and I was fortunate in that I had a pretty good life until health problems struck me down when I was 38. When that happened, I became very depressed again but by then I was no longer a naive young person and I wasn't shy about talking about what was going on with me. I sought help and my depression was 100% cured by an AD. My nephew, however, killed himself at the end of his junior year in college because he had become depressed because of the difficulty of the advanced science classes he was taking (we found out after his death that he had passed all of his classes) and because his ex-girlfriend had gotten pregnant by another guy. He was a seemingly happy-go-lucky kid who had a lot of friends and no one had any idea that he was depressed. He had not told a single soul. IMHO, we should be screening for people like my nephew as well as for the people who are unknowingly getting lousy mental health care.

11/27/14

buduta

Snow White, you think the limit should be 30? Do you seriously think there would be a big difference if i wait 3 years and a couple of month? There was no change in more than the past 10 years, it's obvious there will have no change in the next 3 years. If majority legal age to carry a gun is set to 18, then, i think we can choose what we want to do with our life at 18. And about medical, you seem to forget that people and medical are pro-life, not pro-choice. I think they will refuse to give proof papers, and even if i had proof that i tried every other possibility, i would be one of them who would refuse to give copy of my papers to access this place, for obvious privacy reason. You say you are in this kind of groups since 2007, well i think you don't know the private life of all these people, so you can't afffirm if they tried or not what is considered "everything". And "everything" is different from one person to another. There's not a lot of options for the world, if you think Therapist, Drugs, can solve all problems or that people need to try these before having a right on their life, i'm sorry, but for me, i didn't tried medications, and i will not, because medication will not change the facts that makes me wanting to kill myself.
Finally, i'm glad that it doesn't work the way you want here, because, i'm sorry but i don't share your point of view at all on the subject.

11/27/14

Snow White

"Do you seriously think there would be a big difference if i wait 3 years and a couple of month?"
As I said, exceptions could be made on a case by case basis.
"I didn't tried medications, and i will not, because medication will not change the facts that makes me wanting to kill myself."
Meds work for most people. Because of my physical (and very painful) health problems, I know many people who have chronic pain who are taking ADs for depression and who are benefitting from them. You have been told incorrect information. Whether you take meds or not is your choice, but you have not exhausted your treatment options and I hope you will reconsider trying them. If you're planning to CTB anyway, what do have to lose by trying them?

11/27/14

Snow White

P.S. I wasn't talking about providing medical records. I simply meant that people could be asked what treatments they've tried.

11/27/14

buduta

<<If you're planning to CTB anyway, what do have to lose by trying them?>>
Because it's not a health problem. So it can't change. These drugs just cause more problems. They want you to take them because they make money out of it. If i knew there was at least 0,01% of chance to change my desire of ctb, then, i would consider it. But what need to be changed in my life is fact, and giving me a medication will not change these facts. I consider i tried everything even without taking medication, because medication doesn't apply in my case.

11/27/14

Aborted

Didn't read any of the replies. I will answer anyway: NO. But there's not much we can do about it.

11/27/14

Hollywood

I'm just asking theoretically. Because I've seen the topic brought up a lot lately.
Personally, I think snow white, rl, and silver surfer have brought up many good points.

11/27/14

silversurfer

@SnowWhite
30?!!!!
hopefully by then I would have flung myself off a building and ctb already. That's 7 years away from now so I got plenty of time to lose my fear of heights and death.

11/27/14

W

I nearly died at the age of 13, and found these forums at 17.
With that being said, I agree with those who say openly allowing miners here poses a serious legal risk to this place. Obviously if they don't reveal their true age than not much can be done, but I think it's a good rule of thumb not to allow anyone who says they're under 18.
Adults who come here also need to be careful, never forget Suzy Gonzales and how her parents tried to shut ASH down.

11/27/14

silversurfer

@w
Yeah I've just looked up the SG story http://suzyslaw.com/about-suzy/suzanne-gonzales/
and i'm shaking with rage. fuck these do-gooders. I get so unbelievably angry when people dare to judge people like us. I literally am getting tears in my eyes reading this shit about how this person's friends are blaming forum members for their loved ones suicide.
I can't. I literally don't give a FUCK who decides to ctb and who doesn't because I respect people's needs regarding their bodies and I understand the PAIN, the never-ending cycle of drugs, vomit and sleep I UNDERSTAND how that shit can go on for YEARS. So how fucking DARE people out there even think they understand what is going on in our heads. I mean two can play that game. for all I know her family was shit and that's why she ctb. who blames innocent strangers that's messed up.
I'm in enough pain as it is and I join forums like this because I know other people understand me and suicidal ideation is a HUGE part of my depression but no one even my psychistrist wants to talk about it so I get my feelings on it off here. Now for some person who knows FUCK ALL about my situation to be all like 'her negativity encouraged so and so' like fuck off. Stop blaming people for you fucking up your daughter's/friends life you twats.
so messed up. I can't even

> FOR FUCK'S SAKE WTF AS I AM READING THE GODDMAN BULLSHIT ON THAT WRETCHED PAGE I'M ALMOST HAVING A HEART SEIZURE. CAN THERE BE MORE IGNORANT, SELF-CENTERED, PATHETIC AND APATHETIC HUMANS??? ( SADLY YES ) IN THE ASH FAQ IT IS FUCKING CLEARLY STATED THAT ASH IS PRO-CHOICE AND WE DO NOT FUCKING WELCOME ANTI-SUICIDE ACTIVISTS AND PRO-LIFE ENTHUSIASTS. I ASSUME THIS PERSON MADE A CHOICE TO COME INTO THE ASH COMMUNITY? WE DID NOT PUT A GUN TO HER HEAD AND FORCE HER IN? NO? AND BY WILLINGLY JOINING US AND POSTING TO ASH, SHE SHOULD BE DOWNRIGHT FUCKING AWARE OF THE CONDITIONS AND PRINCIPLES OF THE GROUP AND OUR CORE VALUES??? EVEN IF SHE IS NOT AN ASHER??? (POSTING DOESN'T MAKE YOU AN ASHER AND LIKEWISE YOU DO NOT HAVE TO POST TO ASH TO BE AN ASHER ) SHE SHOULD RESPECT US RIGHT? SHE SHOULD AT LEAST KNOW? HENCE WHY THE FUCK ARE HER PARENTS AND FRIENDS ETC ETC PUSHING THE BLAME ON TO ASHERS? THEY CAN'T ACCEPT THE FACT THAT THEIR DAUGHTER/FRIEND MADE SUCH A CHOICE ON HER OWN AND INSISTED THAT IT WAS THE RESULT OF OTHERS' ACTIONS AND INFLUENCES? THIS IS JUST SHEER PETTINESS AND REFLECTS ON HOW SHALLOW THEY ARE AS HUMANS. JUST BECAUSE OF THEIR UNACCEPTANCE THEY IMPOSE FALSE LABELS AND IDENTITIES ON OTHER AND INFLICT OTHERS, MANY WHO ARE ACTUALLY IN THE SAME SITUATION AS THEIR DAUGHTER/FRIEND WAS, SHAME AND GUILT.
THESE PEOPLE DESERVE TO FUCKING BURN IN HELL. THE PEOPLE WHOM I DESPISE THE MOST - PEOPLE WHO REFUSE TO ACCEPT FACTS THAT ARE EMINENTLY UNCHANGABLE

11/27/14

silversurfer

that's the last time i'm ever going to read anyone's analysis of groups like these. I am beyond enranged. who writes a 'tribute' page to a loved one and then goes on to blame 99% of the person's ctb on strangers? easily influenced my arse.
how about we burn all books because someone might get influenced by peter pan and think they can fly so they go SPLAT on the concrete below.
if you're that easily influenced then it's evolution working isn't it.
un-fucking-believable...-end rant-

11/27/14

A Bridge Too Far

On Thursday, November 27, 2014 5:22:11 AM UTC+7, Snow White wrote:
No one should CTB without exhausting their treatment options

Why.
Explain to me the value of life.
I'm 60+. I have used life. Lots of experiences, learnt more than most. Joys and hell. Ecstasy and depression. Physical and mental suffering. Achievement and failure.
The moment I'm dead it all means nothing. Zero. Had I lived a day or a century makes no difference. Great life or shitty life - no difference. All the pain and all the pleasure - irrelevant.
Life has no intrinsic value. That's the fact most are scared to admit to themselves - which is why they cook up all kinds of ridiculous, airy-fairy woo-woo. We die, at 1, 10, 20, 80. It matters not a jot at what age or whether you were happy or suffering.

11/27/14

silversurfer

'Life has no intrinsic value.'
This. Absolutely this.

11/27/14

deyr

A bridge too far got it right. Guys, whether someone ctb or not, they will still have every chance of dying from the moment they are born (if they are born) to every moment of every day they may live. Do those here who are against minors also believe minors can't die, period? Death happens. Everyone is slowly dying from the moment of conception. And this argument makes me extremely glad there is no way to prevent anyone from finding and using this place. It is very hypocritical to say that anyone below x age shouldn't commit suicide. I am pro-choice no matter what.
And again, citing laws or legal shit for the argument is a moot point. If they wanted to shut down even ASM and ASH they would have done so already. The case of that girl proves that no one gives a shit about the soon-to-commit; even those who knew her placed the blame on strangers to avoid facing the fact that it was most likely all their fault. They won't shut down places for few thousand suicidal people to learn about methods because they just don't give a fuck.

11/27/14

rl

Actually, given that ASM & ASH exist within usenet, it is not possible to shut them down, since the Usenet network is decentralised.
SMH is a different matter, Google just have to flick a switch, and then that is that.

On Thursday, 27 November 2014 14:19:16 UTC, deyr wrote:
If they wanted to shut down even ASM and ASH they would have done so already.

This message has been deleted.

11/27/14

zooey

Are you really unable to see the flaws in your argument? First of all, no-one is saying that people below a certain age don't die: we are saying that this group shouldn't facilitate that. There is no hypocrisy in that statement. However, there is a lot selfishness in your nihilistic stance: as long as you get what you need from the group, you don't care what happens to it after that. I'm beginning to suspect that the reason for your indefensible arguments is the fact that you are underage yourself. Care to comment on that?

On Thursday, 27 November 2014 14:19:16 UTC, deyr wrote:
Do those here who are against minors also believe minors can't die, period? Death happens. Everyone is slowly dying from the moment of conception. And this argument makes me extremely glad there is no way to prevent anyone from finding and using this place. It is very hypocritical to say that anyone below x age shouldn't commit suicide. I am pro-choice no matter what.
And again, citing laws or legal shit for the argument is a moot point. If they wanted to shut down even ASM and ASH they would have done so already. The case of that girl proves that no one gives a shit about the soon-to-commit; even those who knew her placed the blame on strangers to avoid facing the fact that it was most likely all their fault. They won't shut down places for few thousand suicidal people to learn about methods because they just don't give a fuck.

11/28/14

deyr

I'm 24. Care to actually care for anything regarding my being? No? Good.

11/28/14

herbivore

we are saying that this group shouldn't facilitate that.
ok. well, even though i identify with the most hard-core pro-choice people here, deyr & bridge & silver &c., and i think that maybe even 8-year olds or 2-year olds should have the freedom to choose whether they would like to live with pain or not...
but given that (1) there's no real enforceable filter for age, and (2) angry, grieving parents are the most motivated to get political about this all...
there's nothing to do but to maintain appearances, have some discretion, and keep the group safe by not bullbaiting parents with dead children.

11/28/14

zooey

I am cursed with being empathetic to a degree that isn't particularly good for my health but just carry on making inaccurate assumptions about me, if that means you don't have to take the trouble to review your misconceptions of all of mankind.

On Thursday, 27 November 2014 16:38:09 UTC, deyr wrote:
I'm 24. Care to actually care for anything regarding my being? No? Good.

11/28/14

zooey

Really? 8 and 2 year olds? Do you seriously think 2 year olds are capable of making such a decision?

11/28/14

No Alarms

No, they shouldn't be on here. I agree with Zooey's points. Also, we know that the neurobiology of minors is not fully developed yet - the brain is still too susceptible to outside influence both physiologically (since there is still development) and through environmental influence.. There are still a lot of changes going on in the brain - and they haven't experienced enough to know how to deal with things entirely. If suicide is presented as the main option to people who have failed (thus far) to develop other coping mechanisms (while they still CAN - under 20ish - I think, it's easier to figure out other ways to deal with things - and the "hopelessness" of your life can be blown out of proportion at 16 because you haven't experienced much yet) I don't think it's good for them to read about suicide as a main alternative. I don't think it's a good idea for minors to be on pro-anorexia websites either, but there's not much people can do.
In my experience, had I successfully committed suicide at 15 (when I first tried to do it - an absurd attempt with some useless pills) - then I could've avoided a very shitty life... BUT maybe things would have improved. There's no way to have known. If I were given more accurate info on how to do it (and was successful) - then I wouldn't have had the chance to live a better life (unfortunately, I never did - but the odds were in my favor). Who knows how many teen agers go through depression and then get over it? Probably a lot more than adults.

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Written by : Dot at 8:31 PM